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| Jordan Root |
Jordan and Karen Root were funded and sent as SIM (Serving in Mission) missionaries by The Village Church in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, specifically the Dallas Northway Campus. The Village Church (TVC) is a Southern Baptist mega-church which consists of 5 campuses with a history dating back to the 1800s.
In 2002, Highland Village First Baptist Church became The Village Church after Matt Chandler became lead pastor. TVC is a member of the Acts 29 Network of churches. Acts 29 was co-founded by former Mars Hill pastor Mark Driscoll who was removed from the Acts 29 Network in August 2014. Matt Chandler along with the other Acts 29 board members signed the letter to Driscoll.
Acts 29, the international church planting network that Driscoll co-founded and of which he and Mars Hill were a part up until the present moment, has indicated in a letter to Driscoll that they are officially removing Mark and Mars Hill from the network. The statement cites disqualifying sins and no evidence of repentance as the reason. It also asks Mark to step down from ministry.
TVC has a weekly average attendance of over 11,000. Matt Chandler became the President of the Acts 29 Network in 2012. Chandler is also a member of and contributor to The Gospel Coalition.
Jordan Root is currently a licensed professional counselor in the state of Texas, License Number: 68895.
This is a list of Jordan Root’s access to children via employment and volunteer capacities beginning his freshman year of college provided by Jordan’s former wife Karen Hinkley:
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SIM Statement On Outcome of The Investigation of Jordan Root
Karen submitted the letter of her membership resignation on Feb. 11, 2015. On Feb. 20, the following letter (embedded below) was sent by The Village Church pastor Matt Younger to Karen informing her that he and the elders would not be accepting her membership resignation.
We have been perplexed by your decision to file for an annulment of your marriage without first abiding by your covenant obligations to submit to the care and direction of your elders. As I mentioned in my first letter, this decision violates your covenant with us – and places you under discipline. Per section 10.5 of The Village Church bylaws, you are prohibited from voluntarily resigning membership while subject to the formal disciplinary process. We cannot, therefore, accept your resignation.
…
We know this is a step of faith and that many questions have yet to be answered. We will seek to answer each question in time. Until then, your elders are pleading with you to patiently submit to our leadership. Should you choose not to return to The Village Church, we will move forward to the next step in the process of disciplining you as a member. Please hear our appeal. The last thing we want is to lose the privilege of caring for you in this difficult season.
The Village Church made it clear to Karen and church members that Jordan Root is not under church discipline:
While Jordan’s sin is egregious, he has begun to walk in repentance and willingly submitted to the direction of his pastors. This means Jordan is not in formal church discipline (Mt 18:15). Instead, moving forward, Jordan will remain in a season of intentional pastoral care, where his role will be to remain faithful to actions in keeping with repentence (Acts 26:20), pursuing holiness and purity, and continuing to flee from *sin.
Karen was placed under church discipline because she filed for an annulment after Jordan’s confession of pedophilia and withdrew her church membership. (TVC has yet to accept her membership resignation.) Jordan was not placed under church discipline. The *sin that Jordan has confessed to, use of child pornography, is defined as a crime. Why won’t The Village Church call it that?
Any back story on her email? Where is she living? Have we tried to help push her under our *care?
*
Two months after Karen informed The Village Church that she was resigning her church membership and requested in writing that TVC refrain from any future harassment of her, Steve Hardin sent Karen several texts over the course of a few weeks. These are posted below.
A grand deception is achieved when offenders convince others that those who refuse to “forgive & move on” are the actual perpetrators.
— Boz Tchividjian (@BozT) May 15, 2015
Minimizing the wrongfulness of acts committed against a minor is a deceptive tactic of offenders. Don’t fall for it. http://t.co/ZJ8MB2hPGu
— GRACE (@netgrace_org) May 16, 2015
It is this great deception that makes so many of our churches safe places for offenders and not such safe places for those they hurt.
The light of truth and knowledge is our greatest tool to protect kids. Protect the vulnerable. Heal the wounded. Prevent the abuse.
UPDATE:
Julie Anne Smith at Spiritual Sounding Board posted this video today from 4 years ago of Matt Chandler lashing out at anonymous critics from the pulpit. *Trigger Warning-the language & anger from Matt Chandler, lead pastor of The Village Church in this video is chilling and frightening.
Matt Chandler Lashes Out at Anonymous Critics from FBCJax Watchdog on Vimeo.
Update 5/25: The “Narcissistic Zero” sermon was taken down last night by someone other than FBC Jax Watchdog. I wonder who was successful in getting it taken down? But it lives on in other places on the world wide web, most notably here in a post by Alvin L. Reid, Professor of Evangelism & Student Ministry at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Professor Reid links to Matt Chandler’s sermon as a model for dealing with critics.
Pastor Matt Chandler at the Village Church, an exploding congregation in the DFW area, spoke about this in a sermon recently. Hear his words and remember: the next time you want to criticize, be sure your case is real, and your name is attached to all that you do. There is nothing more cowardly in our time of information accessibility than to go by the name “anonymous” or to fail to sign your name when you are being critical. Be open to correction, and when you offer it to others, do it openly, with the compassion of Christ and in the spirit of helping a brother or sister, not in the name of tearing down others to promote your own agenda. Hear Chandler’s words on this:
The “Narcissistic Zero” sermon is also included in the video below at about the 7:30 mark. (Yes, that’s Mark Driscoll in the Elephant Room with Matt Chandler and other buddies.)
Perry Noble and Matt Chandler: Bloggers Who Live With Mom Aren’t Qualified to Call Out False Doctrine
from FBCJax Watchdog on Vimeo.
On Saturday, May 23, The Village Church sent out an email to 6000 “covenant members” about Karen Hinkley and Jordan Root.
I also received an email today that was sent in March by The Village Church about another member under discipline by the church.
This idea of not accepting a person's resignation is nonsensical. This person had extremely good, wise, and valid reasons why she was leaving, and yet she is put under discipline for making an informed decision independent of the elders of a very large church.
This is not just sick, it's a cult mentality that needs to go. It's the bad fruit of poor theology and a lack of understanding about the grievous nature of sexual abuse of any kind. It also may indicate the way this church movement views women, intentionally or not.
What a horrific lack of integrity on the part of the Church that we have tolerated this for so long. It must stop.
This current Authority Movement denies the priesthood and negates the advice of Christians not approved by equally sinful people inside a given church. It's nuts.
Praying for Karen and that she is not further abused by this church, but rather, heard and affirmed as following Christ, which she is clearly doing without their support, and in fact with their disapproval.
So sorry to hear this, Karen. Their behavior towards you is absolutely appalling. Way to stay strong!
So sorry to hear this, Karen. Their behavior towards you is absolutely appalling. Way to stay strong!
So was the man arrested for the possession of child pornography?
So was the man arrested for the possession of child pornography?
Thank you for your support for this courageous young woman. The Village Church's treatment of her is appalling. Shame on them for their role in attempting to cover this up and essentially re-victimizing a victim. I hope that the church membership will use Karen's story as a wake-up call and take steps to hold their leadership accountable, as I cannot believe that many would agree this is the Christian thing to do.
Thank you for your support for this courageous young woman. The Village Church's treatment of her is appalling. Shame on them for their role in attempting to cover this up and essentially re-victimizing a victim. I hope that the church membership will use Karen's story as a wake-up call and take steps to hold their leadership accountable, as I cannot believe that many would agree this is the Christian thing to do.
Why does the reaction of this "church" surprise anyone at all? This is a mega-church with celebrity pastors who will do whatever it takes to save face- THEIR face. Churches are nothing but organizations primarily in the business of making money and putting their name/face/likeness into the world. It's not about Christ and hasn't been for years!! Walk into this church any given Sunday, you will very likely not see downtrodden, financially poor sinners in search of a savior. What you WILL see are rows and rows of money; old money, new money, and prospective money. What you will also see are rows and rows of exclusionary elitists who put on their expensive play clothes every Sunday, drive their big families in their big expensive SUV's and play county club cleverly disguised as church. This child abuser is one of the many faces of their game play and facade and his former wife is nothing but their convenient scapegoat to throw under the proverbial bus. They would much rather drag her through the mud and abuse her while hiding behind so-called church rules and flowery words like GRACE and repentance than to EVER admit they enlisted such a sick man to represent their country club. To this woman Karen– RUN. RUN as fast and as hard as you can from these people. They absolutely will not stop slandering and abusing you, your family, and your friends all just to avoid admitting they screwed up.
This situation is so disturbing to me. My son was molested by Pete Newman at Kanakuk Kamps. Google it if you aren't aware of him. The camp, including their well-known leader, Joe White, did not take the proper steps when they KNEW Newman was acting 'inappropriately' with campers. He was allowed to stay and in doing so molested boys for years.
It is crucial to act on the side of children even when you don't have all the facts needed. Once abused, you can never take that back. We are still praying for emotional healing though it has been 10+ years since the event.
Good for you, Karen, for speaking out to help the children.
This situation is so disturbing to me. My son was molested by Pete Newman at Kanakuk Kamps. Google it if you aren't aware of him. The camp, including their well-known leader, Joe White, did not take the proper steps when they KNEW Newman was acting 'inappropriately' with campers. He was allowed to stay and in doing so molested boys for years.
It is crucial to act on the side of children even when you don't have all the facts needed. Once abused, you can never take that back. We are still praying for emotional healing though it has been 10+ years since the event.
Good for you, Karen, for speaking out to help the children.
My understanding is that it is actually illegal in the U.S. for a church to refuse to accept a membership resignation, because of the constitutional right to freedom of association. I believe there have been cases along these lines with the Mormon church. Now, it's possible that the judicial system would be biased against Karen since she is dealing with an evangelical church in Texas, but I think that with a good lawyer, it would be worth attempting to legally force the church to accept her resignation.
My understanding is that it is actually illegal in the U.S. for a church to refuse to accept a membership resignation, because of the constitutional right to freedom of association. I believe there have been cases along these lines with the Mormon church. Now, it's possible that the judicial system would be biased against Karen since she is dealing with an evangelical church in Texas, but I think that with a good lawyer, it would be worth attempting to legally force the church to accept her resignation.
Having read all the correspondence posted here the thing that leaps out to me is that I keep reading the words, "Let us care for you" but the message I keep hearing from those words is, "Let us control you and tell you what decisions you should be making."
If, as Jesus taught, we are all brothers and sisters then why do some 'brothers' think they have the right to dictate to others? To paraphrase Orwell, it seems to be a case of "some brothers are more equal than others"!
Having read all the correspondence posted here the thing that leaps out to me is that I keep reading the words, "Let us care for you" but the message I keep hearing from those words is, "Let us control you and tell you what decisions you should be making."
If, as Jesus taught, we are all brothers and sisters then why do some 'brothers' think they have the right to dictate to others? To paraphrase Orwell, it seems to be a case of "some brothers are more equal than others"!
Living Liminal,
I would say that it's a case of "all brothers are more equal than all sisters." Or, "all men are more equal than all women."
Living Liminal,
I would say that it's a case of "all brothers are more equal than all sisters." Or, "all men are more equal than all women."
"To paraphrase Orwell, it seems to be a case of "some brothers are more equal than others."
Living Liminal,
I would say that it's a case of "all brothers are more equal than all sisters." Or, "all men are more equal than all women."
I'm so saddened to read this. There needs to be some major changes in the Christian church. What a complete mess. So glad this woman had good counsel and support from others, because she seems very strong and level headed through such an awful time. She is a brave woman to come forward … I hope she doesn't receive further harassment after this blog post.
I'm so saddened to read this. There needs to be some major changes in the Christian church. What a complete mess. So glad this woman had good counsel and support from others, because she seems very strong and level headed through such an awful time. She is a brave woman to come forward … I hope she doesn't receive further harassment after this blog post.
Amy Smith — WELL DONE!
Karen Hinkley ——— WELL WELL DONE! I honour your bravery, your honesty, your clarity, your determination to protect children, your hatred of evil, your cry for justice, your wisdom in fleeing the synagogue of satan which is proteting a criminal and condemning you because you got and annullment of that pseudo-marriage with a criminal.
I am so very glad that the secular court gave you justice (granted the annulment). Shame on The Village Church for being such dishour to Christ by their complicity with the pedophile.
It should be obvious that the word of a chronic pedophile cannot be trusted. Serial Pedophiles, socially skilled child molester, child porn addicts are so entrenched in abominable sin. The secular world has plenty of evidence from forensic psychologist and criminologists that pedophiles do not change. They are one of the most intractable, untreatable groups. Their character disorder is so habituated to lying and self-gratification..
Yet the super-pastors at TVC think they are better at assessing the confession of a pedophile than experienced forensic investigators and forensic psyhcologists are
They make themselves a laughting stock.
Karen, my heart goes out to you. I'd like to invite you to visit A Cry For Justice cryingoutforjustice.com.
We are seeking to awaken the Evangelical Church to domestic violenc and abuse in its midst. The abuse we cover is mostly spouse abuse, but as you know that often overlaps or co-occurs with child abuse and sexual perversion.
There you will find a whole heap of stuff about abusers, and a community of Christians who are victim-survivors of horrific marriages.
And if you want a free copy of my book "Not Under Bondage: Biblical Divorce For Abuse, Adultery And Desertion", go to that site and look up my email addres in the 'about' tab. Email me and give me a safe shipping address and I'll get a copy sent to you.
This is very tragic the way Karen was treated. It’s extremely sad that it was at the hand of a church that is supposed to feed and care for Jesus’ sheep. But, this is a great example of how The Village Church pastors operate. Keep in mind these are seminary educated men. They are not stupid. Karen pointed out to them that they were remiss, in believing that a pedophile was telling them the whole truth, when he said that he hadn’t harmed any children. But they already knew that such people can’t be trusted. The fact is that they didn’t want to go public with the information that they had a pedophile in their midst, because it could have tarnished their image, and that might affect the mega-church franchise that they are building. Karen’s situation is significantly more tragic than my experience with The Village Church pastoral group, but I was similarly and intentionally deceived for years, when I asked questions on theological issues. The pastors at the Village Church also don’t want to reveal what they believe (and they are clearly under orders from the top to do so) about specific Bible doctrine, because they know it will be controversial, and they could lose members (i.e., it would hurt their business model). My experience with The Village Church can be read here:
http://www.praythendo.com/why-i-left-the-village-church/
When I told the campus pastor at The Village Church that I was resigning my membership, I was met with the same response that Karen got. Essentially, they threw the Covenant Membership Agreement that I had signed at me. They told me I couldn’t resign and that I had to meet with them about my blog article above. I asked that they write up what issues they had with my article before we met, and they refused to put anything in writing. So I refused to meet with them. I was then told that I was not suitable for membership in any other church, because they could not release me from the covenant I had signed. I did just as Karen did, and told them the covenant didn’t apply to me, as I was no longer a member of the church. I remember thinking at the time about the unbiblical nature of such covenants, and that Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:5 that, “There is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.” But, the Village Church doesn’t see it that way. They see themselves in the role as a second mediator. The pastoral group at The Village Church is on a sad and sorry power trip, and they will continue to hurt people along the way.
Appalling stuff. However, for the purpose of telling the full story to those who are just reading the scribd page, it might be helpful to add the text messages to that page.
Amy – awesome job making this public.
You're obviously in touch with Karen, and you've probably seen the tweets between Christian Janeway and Matt Chandler. If you feel it would be appropriate, why not ask Karen if she would consider telling Chandler and TVC that she is happy for them to discuss her situation publicly.
The evidence I've seen makes it clear that TVC has behaved dreadfully towards Karen, but Chandler has said "there was/is WAY more to this story but don't let that stop you from speculation", "I am not legally allowed 2 share details of members lives with the press or people who are nonmembers", and "I wish I could unpack this whole terrible ordeal to all of you but I am not legally allowed to share the details of members lives".
This is all quite valid. But if Karen releases TVC from pastoral confidentiality, they would be able to share their side of the story. She could write or email TVC to this effect and send you a copy to post here so they can't claim it wasn't sent. In the interests of transparency and full disclosure, I think this would be a good thing. If there is nothing more of significance that could come out, then let's not give TVC an excuse to claim that there is but they can't tell us.
Hope this makes sense, and please let Karen know my thoughts and prayers are with her.
Viewing child pornography is a crime. Why didn't The Village Church and SIM report Jordan Root to the authorities? Why hasn't this man been arrested! This story is appalling on so many many levels. My prayers are with Karen.
"… if evidence does come to light that molestation might have happened, then we will absolutely communicate that quickly to those who need to know." (said Brindley)
The evidence has ALREADY come to light that molestation MIGHT have happend. Her " e is the evidence:
1. Jordan Root has confessed to having watched child porn for years.
2. Jordan Root has a history of having had access to children for many years, in many towns, in many different settings.
Verification for point 2, from Jordan Root's former wife, Karen Hinkley formerly Karen Root), from this source:
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/she-speaks-village-church-protects.html
****
Begin quote from watchkeep blog
This is a list of Jordan Root’s access to children via employment and volunteer capacities beginning his freshman year of college provided by Jordan's former wife Karen Hinkley:
Paid:
· Daycare in Albany, NY (Prior to 2003 and then off and on until 2007)
· Daycare in Cedarville, OH (Period of time between 2004 and 2007)
· Summer Camp at First Baptist Dallas, Dallas, TX (May-August 2008)
· Dolfin Swim School, Dallas, TX (September 2008-July 2010)
· In Class Learning Differences Aid, Dallas, TX (September-December 2010)
· Practicum Counselor at Dallas Life, Dallas, TX (worked with families and children; January-August 2011)
· Private Children's Swim Instructor, Dallas, TX (June-September 2011)
· Mental Health Technician at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (November 2011-March 2012)
· Therapist on the Child and Adolescent Unit at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (March 2012-May 2014)
· A substantial amount of paid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX
Unpaid:
· Informal Children's Ministry to Refugee Children in Vickery Meadows, Dallas, TX (2008-2011)
· Lived in Santa Fe Trails Apartment Complex, Dallas, TX; spent a lot of time alone with children (2008-2012)
· Volunteered in children’s and youth ministries at various churches in Cedarville, OH and Dallas, TX (and possibly Albany, NY)
· A substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX
Anyone who has seen, suspected or suffered child sex crimes by Jordan Root is urged to come forward and contact local police in order to heal and protect others. In the Dallas area, contact the Dallas police child exploitation unit at (214) 671-4211. Child Help national child abuse hotline is available 24/7: 1-800-4-A-CHILD (1-800-422-4453)
– See more at: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/she-speaks-village-church-protects.html#sthash.j7TuvCLJ.dpuf
End quote from watchkeep blog
*******
That is enough evidence to show that molestation MIGHT have happened!
C'mon, Village Church, the guy has spent almost all his waking energy trying to get access to kids. That is what serial child molesters do. They don't take vacations. They don't have weekends off. The spend all their waking hours trying to get access to children and grooming the gatekeeper-adults around those children to get them to trust them.
I don't have to have been a fly on the wall in Jordan Root's life so dedude from that list of his life-activities and jobs, that he has put a LOT of energy into getting access to children.
In fact, that list is enough to suggest that molestation has almost CERTAINLY happened — that Jordan Root has almost certainly molested children. In fact, it's enough to suggest that Jordan has molested MANY children.
I do not hate Jordan Root; I have simply read a very good book about the Socially Skilled Child Molester, by Carla van Dam, PhD. And what that book taught me leads me to suggest that Jordan most likely has molested MANY children.
Village Church needs to do a 100% about-turn on the way they've handled Jordan and Karen.
This form of authoritarian Christianity needs to end or at least be exposed for what it is. Who do these men think they are? They have no Biblical right to hold Karen to some covenant. And any man who has a history of watching porn (any kind of porn) is in need of extensive help and I haven't read anything yet about what help he is getting. Porn actually damages the brain (it's been proven) and it is a sign of deeper problems which are not solved just by repentance. It creates a mess in the family, in marriage, and in the life of those involved. This woman deserves the right to be free of that!
Jordan was turned over to the authorities. The text above says that Joedan knew he could be arrested at any moment. If he's cleared at this time by the FBI what more do you want? Would it be wiser for the church to keep him close in case he falls back in to it or has never actually gotten out? Or is it wise to kick him out and leave him not under any authority or observation?
There is a strict protocol regarding him and his attendance and involvement in the church.
Karen is indeed a victim. Again the text above owns this fact. But karen agreed to a covenant with the church. Church covenants are not "church you serve me how and when I want to be served and I can forgo my obligation anytime I choose." Remember the church supported her as a missionary. If she would have met with the elders they most likely would have sided with her. But she didn't.
As heinous as Jordan's acts are, at this time he is doing everything being asked of him. But people posting here, don't be naive and think he's not under a suspicious eye.
Authorities were involved. The FBI conducted an investigation and no charges are going to be filed at this time. The text above acknowledeged that Jordan knew he could be arrested at any moment.
The text above also acknowledged that Karen was indeed the victim. What if TVC just abonded her altogether? What would you be saying about TVC then? They know from the covenant she signed that they are obligated to support her and care for her, not control her. But the covenant she signed says she agrees to certain processes. A covenant isn't "serve me how and when I want to be served (support as a missionary) but I have no obligation as I see fit." If she gave the process a chance the elders very likely would have sided with her. But she didn't meet with them.
Jordan is doing everything asked of him. There is a strict protocol regarding his attendance and involvement in the church. Is it better to keep him close under authority and observation or just kick him out with no one to hold him accountable?
The church, contrary to cultural opinion, is there for the victim and perptrator alike.
Response to “Anonymous”
This might just be the most cruel and insensitive thing I have ever read. The Village Church’s first response to Karen was to ask her to suppress the reason why Jordan was being removed from ministry. She was asked to “keep a lid” on the fact that her husband was a pervert pedophile because it would “protect him from guilt he didn’t deserve.” Clearly, the pastors were trying to protect the reputation of the Church. They told Karen her husband had told them that he hadn’t harmed any children. Karen had to point out to the pastors that a guilty pedophile might just be lying. Can you even comprehend how a woman would feel suffering the kind of emotional pain she was suffering, and yet being required to, “keep it to herself for the good of her husband?” For any woman, the marriage is over when you find out your husband is a purveyor of sadomasochistic kiddie porn. Yet, The Village Church expected the little woman to put on a happy face? What woman could live with a man like that, let alone entertain the idea of such a pervert crawling on top of her? And yet, The Village Church expects them to go to church together? That is just so astoundingly ignorant and insensitive! My skin crawls just thinking of that and I can’t imagine how Karen felt being asked to do such. But, you say your covenant requires her to do what she’s told, and she signed the covenant, and she can’t choose her circumstances under which to honor it? Are you kidding me? You are actually criticizing Karen for not meeting with the Village Church elder group after they asked her to be part of a cover-up of a pedophile? This cover-up is sadly worse than the crime. You are clearly someone in a position of authority at The Village Church. You, “Anonymous” have too much detail to not be that kind of person. You are someone “in-the-know” at The Village Church, and that is so terribly sad. You have taken a filthy and dirty situation and succeeded in making it even more filthy and dirty. You say that Jordan is doing all that has been asked of him. That’s just wonderful that you’re willing to give Jordan so much credit, yet you continue to victimize Karen, and even make her more of a victim by your heartless comments. Yes, what else could Jordan do? He’s busted. How about all the years he’s purveyed kiddie porn unabated and leading this secret life? What more could he do right now? Who are you, “Anonymous?” Are you Matt Chandler? Maybe or maybe not, but you have as I said, taken this saga to an even more filthy and dirty place. You are filthy and dirty and I don’t know why anyone would attend your filthy and dirty church.
Question: Where is Jordan Root right now?
Chandler has, from the pulpit, made it crystal clear that the church would not protect you if you committed a crime. They would call the cops.
Jordan Root has committed a crime so did the cops get called to haul him away?
I am so confused.
Question: Where is Jordan Root right now?
Chandler has, from the pulpit, made it crystal clear that the church would not protect you if you committed a crime. They would call the cops.
Jordan Root has committed a crime so did the cops get called to haul him away?
I am so confused.
I posted twice. I'm anonymous too. Thats my lack of smart phone skills.
I don't know a lot about this situation other than whats on this blog. Comments above asked about the involvement of authorities, I do know they were involved.
I understand covenant relationship. It can be difficult to stay with when tested to this extreme. Biblically though, we don't get to choose when to adhere and when not to.
No doubt this woman is a victim. No doubt she was severely hurt and betrayed. She needs counseling and help from the community she covenanted with. She's choosing to not take it. Thats her choice. Who can blame her considering the betrayal she experienced. I can understand wanting to get away as far as possible.
The cover up? I wasn't there for those conversations and I'm sure you weren't either.
Jordan maybe lying. I'm confident the truth is being sought.
It is my understanding that TVC felt a marital seperation was necessary. She wasn't expected to live with him.
What would you say of TVC had they shunned and abandoned Karen as soon as she filed an anullment?
My attitude regarding being for a covenant as long as we are being served how we want to be served, will Karen refuse support from TVC through August since she no longer wants to be apart of that church? Per the text above TVC is committed to supporting her through August.
This is a very bad thing. Its easy to sit back and criticize in retrospect.
I posted twice. I'm anonymous too. Thats my lack of smart phone skills.
I don't know a lot about this situation other than whats on this blog. Comments above asked about the involvement of authorities, I do know they were involved.
I understand covenant relationship. It can be difficult to stay with when tested to this extreme. Biblically though, we don't get to choose when to adhere and when not to.
No doubt this woman is a victim. No doubt she was severely hurt and betrayed. She needs counseling and help from the community she covenanted with. She's choosing to not take it. Thats her choice. Who can blame her considering the betrayal she experienced. I can understand wanting to get away as far as possible.
The cover up? I wasn't there for those conversations and I'm sure you weren't either.
Jordan maybe lying. I'm confident the truth is being sought.
It is my understanding that TVC felt a marital seperation was necessary. She wasn't expected to live with him.
What would you say of TVC had they shunned and abandoned Karen as soon as she filed an anullment?
My attitude regarding being for a covenant as long as we are being served how we want to be served, will Karen refuse support from TVC through August since she no longer wants to be apart of that church? Per the text above TVC is committed to supporting her through August.
This is a very bad thing. Its easy to sit back and criticize in retrospect.
Even if Karen had continued to meet with them, I highly doubt The Village would have "sided with her.” Once The Village takes a stand on something, they very rarely concede. I have been in numerous meetings with the pastors mentioned in Karen's story and I have been met with the same "let us care for you" jargon. I was told repeatedly that because of my sin I was unable to make wise decisions and I needed to rely on the church to “guide and care for me." I was placed under church discipline for a period because I “continue[d] to be a threat to [my] own safety and are unable to keep with the fruits of the spirit."
The Village continuously uses the phrase "care for you" when they really want to control the narrative and act as a savior. Because I was not healing on their timeline or in the way they saw fit I was placed under discipline so that my "recovery" could be closely monitored and measured. When medical help was suggested I was told that someone from the church would need to come with me so they "could ask the doctor questions and figure out what the best plan is for moving forward." It is not hard to make someone believe what you want them to. I was not better, but I sure made the pastors think I was because I was sick of the meetings and check ins and follow ups. I am grateful to be on a path toward healing now, but don't for one minute think that Jordan Root is being honest when he claims has not abused a child physically. That would be both naive and dangerous.
It seems that the phrase "its ok to not be okay" that is thrown around like confetti in Village circles is used frequently to prey upon vulnerable and broken people. The pastors and staff at the church are not the only ones with a savior mentality, it is pervasive throughout Village culture. I was their project, and I wasn't "fixed" fast enough, so CHURCH DISCIPLINE. I wasn't to be trusted with making wise decisions (or controlling the narrative of my own story) so enter stage left The Village staff to make those decisions for me.
Even assuming the The Village Church was acting in good faith (which I question), this remains an appalling example of pastoral incompetency.
While I think that membership covenants MAY have their place in a faith community, they should exist to define boundaries and responsibilities, not beat someone over the head.
I am not sure if Karen did violate the membership covenant before seeking an annulment (not a divorce, this is important). However, TVC's leadership may want to think long and hard about why she did this. Consider:
1. She found out that her husband, the man she loved, had severely dysfunctional sexual inclinations and had committed a crime in attempting to fulfill his desires. I cannot imagine the suffering she must have experienced. The cognitive dissonance must have been traumatic. I cannot fault her for seeking to extract herself from the situation as soon as possible. I can't understand why anyone else would fault her, either.
2. Is it possible that Karen didn't work with TVC in the way they wanted her to because she realized that they aren't trustworthy? That she didn't feel safe working with them?
Has TVC leadership not considered this? And if they have, have they considered why she may not feel safe with them?
And why would anyone, much less a pastor, use coercive methods as a way to force someone who doesn't trust him/her to work with him/her? A good pastor would understand that what is important in this situation is that the parishioner get support from a safe source. They don't thump the parishioner (or in this case ex-parishioner) over the head with a signed contract.
Oh, and as for that covenant? She probably signed it thinking that the worst that might happen is that she and her husband might get into a doctrinal disagreement with the church or somesuch. She likely never thought that her marriage was a complete fraud.
And she probably never thought that the "leadership" on the other side of that document would use it as a way of trying to chase her down and trap her.
Even assuming the The Village Church was acting in good faith (which I question), this remains an appalling example of pastoral incompetency.
While I think that membership covenants MAY have their place in a faith community, they should exist to define boundaries and responsibilities, not beat someone over the head.
I am not sure if Karen did violate the membership covenant before seeking an annulment (not a divorce, this is important). However, TVC's leadership may want to think long and hard about why she did this. Consider:
1. She found out that her husband, the man she loved, had severely dysfunctional sexual inclinations and had committed a crime in attempting to fulfill his desires. I cannot imagine the suffering she must have experienced. The cognitive dissonance must have been traumatic. I cannot fault her for seeking to extract herself from the situation as soon as possible. I can't understand why anyone else would fault her, either.
2. Is it possible that Karen didn't work with TVC in the way they wanted her to because she realized that they aren't trustworthy? That she didn't feel safe working with them?
Has TVC leadership not considered this? And if they have, have they considered why she may not feel safe with them?
And why would anyone, much less a pastor, use coercive methods as a way to force someone who doesn't trust him/her to work with him/her? A good pastor would understand that what is important in this situation is that the parishioner get support from a safe source. They don't thump the parishioner (or in this case ex-parishioner) over the head with a signed contract.
Oh, and as for that covenant? She probably signed it thinking that the worst that might happen is that she and her husband might get into a doctrinal disagreement with the church or somesuch. She likely never thought that her marriage was a complete fraud.
And she probably never thought that the "leadership" on the other side of that document would use it as a way of trying to chase her down and trap her.
I go to the Village. I am very saddened by this story and the grief Karen has gone through from her ex. Just found out today since I don't go to Dallas site. I am not on staff and am unsure how to proceed.
1-I am glad TVC and SIM reported immediately to police and other authorities!!!! Glad they took action.
2-It is great the Village chose to support her financially all the way until Aug and not the offender at all.
3-I am sad people chose to not immediately report offender to prior employers while investigation was happening…this bothers me as a parent a lot…maybe investigators said to let them handle. Regardless, still bothers me!
4-Good they let all the Dallas folks he know and barred him from kids areas, set other restrictions, etc. They seem to have made the offenders issues very public.
5-They e-mailed 6000 covenant members on issue which never happens and gave far more details than article above. I wish author had this detail.
6-Church e-mails in story above to her all attempt to try to be very loving. She still seemed to communicate after she asked for separation and of course they're helping her financially so TVC seems like they were trying to help as much as possible.
7-Despite their best attempts (which is clear in e-mails above) from female and male church members, they failed at helping her but succeeded him helping him, which bothers me heavily. I can't sleep it bothers me so much.
I also understand why they are trying to help the offender. They are a church. They can't turn their back on the lowest of people, like pedophiles, who need help. Jesus wouldn't.
This church's non-response to one of the most heinous crimes a human can commit against another makes me wonder how many of their so-called "elders" are complicit. Everything about this response is wrong–both biblically and legally. Shame on you, Village Church. And shame on every member who continues to support this travesty.
I am the Village attendee who posted one or two comments above. (I thought it would take the URL to my blog but didn't and left me anonymous.) I talked to people today and there are a few more facts to this story. I feel better about my concerns above. The church really did try to help her in good faith, but like many people trying to do good could have handled things better. It is odd that we're dealing with a child pornographer and the main issues people debate are should the church keep trying to help her. That's all they wanted to do was help this person who previously said and signed she wanted their counseling if issues arise.
Lainie to your question/comment, membership at the church functions likely you described in paragraph and it is a set boundaries. No one disagrees with you on pt1 you made. And nothing in those emails above seems coercive that I can find if it helps. She kept talking with the Village after asking communication to stop and she still has a relationship to receive financial support they send her. Churches and non-profits have to be responsible to help people as much as possible who have requested help and are receiving their help.
People say the indifference of good people is the greatest evil but the Village taking action on alerting authorities, notifying members/population, setting boundaries for offender, bringing this to light, notifying communities and others not involved in this, and trying to help a suffering lady who signed and agreed to the group's help if issues arise is hard for me to attack as actions of indifference or something to disagree with. I am not saying I agree with how all was handled, but I am saying the imperfect people In the Village made strong efforts to try to help all in good faith. My heart goes out to this lady and I know I can't imagine all she's gone through.
I am the Village attendee who posted one or two comments above. (I thought it would take the URL to my blog but didn't and left me anonymous.) I talked to people today and there are a few more facts to this story. I feel better about my concerns above. The church really did try to help her in good faith, but like many people trying to do good could have handled things better. It is odd that we're dealing with a child pornographer and the main issues people debate are should the church keep trying to help her. That's all they wanted to do was help this person who previously said and signed she wanted their counseling if issues arise.
Lainie to your question/comment, membership at the church functions likely you described in paragraph and it is a set boundaries. No one disagrees with you on pt1 you made. And nothing in those emails above seems coercive that I can find if it helps. She kept talking with the Village after asking communication to stop and she still has a relationship to receive financial support they send her. Churches and non-profits have to be responsible to help people as much as possible who have requested help and are receiving their help.
People say the indifference of good people is the greatest evil but the Village taking action on alerting authorities, notifying members/population, setting boundaries for offender, bringing this to light, notifying communities and others not involved in this, and trying to help a suffering lady who signed and agreed to the group's help if issues arise is hard for me to attack as actions of indifference or something to disagree with. I am not saying I agree with how all was handled, but I am saying the imperfect people In the Village made strong efforts to try to help all in good faith. My heart goes out to this lady and I know I can't imagine all she's gone through.
To clarify, I posted the first Sun anonymous comment above. The Sat one was not me.
To clarify, I posted the first Sun anonymous comment above. The Sat one was not me.
I am an ordained evangelical minister with my M.Div. from Yale. And I am a professional, Board Certified Chaplain (BCC) meaning pastoral care is what I was extensively trained to do and actually do for a living. From reading this post, I can tell you that forcing "care" upon someone is not care. The emails and initiation of church discipline is coercive. If The Village Church pastors were about caring for Karen and not controlling her (i.e. spiritually abusing her), they would have let her go and left their offer of care on the table IF SHE CHANGED HER MIND WANTING IT LATER. It needed to be on her terms. As a brother evangelical minister, I am both appalled and disgusted by how this was handled. The whole situation reminds me of how Mars Hill Church in Seattle handled situations like these. And that is not a complement. My hat is off to Karen in how bravely and strongly she navigated this mess.
I am an ordained evangelical minister with my M.Div. from Yale. And I am a professional, Board Certified Chaplain (BCC) meaning pastoral care is what I was extensively trained to do and actually do for a living. From reading this post, I can tell you that forcing "care" upon someone is not care. The emails and initiation of church discipline is coercive. If The Village Church pastors were about caring for Karen and not controlling her (i.e. spiritually abusing her), they would have let her go and left their offer of care on the table IF SHE CHANGED HER MIND WANTING IT LATER. It needed to be on her terms. As a brother evangelical minister, I am both appalled and disgusted by how this was handled. The whole situation reminds me of how Mars Hill Church in Seattle handled situations like these. And that is not a complement. My hat is off to Karen in how bravely and strongly she navigated this mess.
Oh my, I just listened to that audio of Matt Chandler letting loose with his anger. What's shocking is that he does it in a public venue. Further, that he attacks those that disagree with him with such vehemence. Such a reaction would be understandable from a young, immature Christian. But this kind of behavior from a pastor who believes himself to be a shepherd is very disturbing.
In the text messages above the pastor asks karen to let him know if she felt the village failed her in anyway. Based on the information in this blog she did not let him know.
A covenant is a covenant whether you expect just doctrinal differences or something as horrific as this.
I'm bothered by comments on this blog that sound as if a church and covenant member relationship is nothing more than a customer/ service provider relationship and the customer is always right.
In the text messages above the pastor asks karen to let him know if she felt the village failed her in anyway. Based on the information in this blog she did not let him know.
A covenant is a covenant whether you expect just doctrinal differences or something as horrific as this.
I'm bothered by comments on this blog that sound as if a church and covenant member relationship is nothing more than a customer/ service provider relationship and the customer is always right.
Hi, the Matt Chandler video appears to be been pulled from Vimeo. From what I can tell, it was just an audio recording which is still available at:
http://alvinreid.com/?p=1073 (And I find the content rather scary!)
I have downloaded it and would encourages others to do the same in case it also disappears.
I would honestly like to know where you all get this idea of Biblical covenant. And why isn't Karen capable of making her own decisions without the leadership of the church? You must not be old enough to remember the old Bob Mumford shepherding movement which was much like this manipulative and controlling garbage and brought many people into bondage. In those groups you couldn't make decisions without your leaders approving them. That is so cult-like that it's downright scary to hear about it in a church.It sound much like the garbage that came out of Mars Hill. While all involved may be sincere, God-loving people, I fear that they (at the Village Church) are sadly deceived.
Sounds just like Mark Driscoll. The flesh profits nothing.
ssteinbach1, I must say that I am appalled at your "covenant" thinking. All this "covenant" crap is just that…crap. We are members of Jesus Christ, and we are under HIS covenant which is FAITH without the law.
Man's covenants mean nothing, because man cannot keep us from Jesus.
Every Christian is a member of the BODY of Christ. A church building is a place for FELLOWSHIP, not dictatorship.
The covenants that are instituted in church's like this are nothing more than "traditions of man" that make void the word of God. Make void.
We have only one covenant with God, and that is FAITH. That is the covenant. Any other covenant is of the devil himself.
Ed Chapman
ssteinbach1, I must say that I am appalled at your "covenant" thinking. All this "covenant" crap is just that…crap. We are members of Jesus Christ, and we are under HIS covenant which is FAITH without the law.
Man's covenants mean nothing, because man cannot keep us from Jesus.
Every Christian is a member of the BODY of Christ. A church building is a place for FELLOWSHIP, not dictatorship.
The covenants that are instituted in church's like this are nothing more than "traditions of man" that make void the word of God. Make void.
We have only one covenant with God, and that is FAITH. That is the covenant. Any other covenant is of the devil himself.
Ed Chapman
Pastor David,
Pastors like you are becoming few and far between. I blame John Calvin, and those who preach him.
Ed Chapman
Pastor David,
Pastors like you are becoming few and far between. I blame John Calvin, and those who preach him.
Ed Chapman
ssteinbach1,
One other thing, ssteinbach1. Karen does not need church permission to get divorced, or an annulment, no more than she needs permission as to what toilet paper to buy. The church that you are defending is not the church that Jesus is building. Karen belongs to His Church, not the Village Church. Which means that she can choose what church building that she wishes to fellowship in, and the Village Church has no say in the matter. They can waive that "covenant" all they want in her face, but she is not obligated to that, in the face of God. The leadership of the Village Church is nothing more than the Pharisees of Jesus' day, adding rules and regulations to the word of God, making void the word of God. Your defense of this church is terrible.
Ed Chapman
ssteinbach1,
One other thing, ssteinbach1. Karen does not need church permission to get divorced, or an annulment, no more than she needs permission as to what toilet paper to buy. The church that you are defending is not the church that Jesus is building. Karen belongs to His Church, not the Village Church. Which means that she can choose what church building that she wishes to fellowship in, and the Village Church has no say in the matter. They can waive that "covenant" all they want in her face, but she is not obligated to that, in the face of God. The leadership of the Village Church is nothing more than the Pharisees of Jesus' day, adding rules and regulations to the word of God, making void the word of God. Your defense of this church is terrible.
Ed Chapman
I just think it's ironic how some people supporting TVC on here are choosing to be anon.
Melody Young
I just think it's ironic how some people supporting TVC on here are choosing to be anon.
Melody Young
The Law of the Land prevails, regardless of church affiliation. The Bible states so. But church’s like this purposefully ignore the scripture that states so, and they have no conscience in doing so.
“The Church”, and I use that phrase sarcastically, has redefined what Matthew 18 was intended for. “The Church” has no authority in this matter whatsoever. Karen did not sin against “The Church”. “The Church” is not her victim. Victims seem to have no say whatsoever, except to be placed in church discipline.
There is much wrong with the modern take on Matthew 18, all because the Catholics make “The Church” into an authority figure, when it isn’t. Calvinists maintain Catholic teachings on Matthew 18.
Matthew 18 is intended for sins perpetrated against you, when the perpetrator refuses to admit guilt, even when confronted by “witnesses”. But, “The Church” has taken it upon themselves to put innocent people in discipline, and the guilty in protection. This is not what God intended in Matthew 18. He intended for the perp to be kicked out of the church (Assembly of Believers, not church authority). Tax collector, publican, and heathen was another word for sinner, and sinners do not get to heaven. That is how the perp is to be treated, like an outsider. The perp is not to be protected at all. If they wish to have mercy on the perp, civil justice has nothing to do with spiritual matters, and therefore, they can minister to the perp while he is in a jail cell.
The church is the last resort in the Matthew 18 process, not the first step. The church stays out of it. There is no Matthew 18 process here. Dial 9-1-1 and let the proper civil authorities investigate.
My lesson: “The Church (false authority)” vs. the church (assembly of believers).
The Law of the Land prevails, regardless of church affiliation. The Bible states so. But church’s like this purposefully ignore the scripture that states so, and they have no conscience in doing so.
“The Church”, and I use that phrase sarcastically, has redefined what Matthew 18 was intended for. “The Church” has no authority in this matter whatsoever. Karen did not sin against “The Church”. “The Church” is not her victim. Victims seem to have no say whatsoever, except to be placed in church discipline.
There is much wrong with the modern take on Matthew 18, all because the Catholics make “The Church” into an authority figure, when it isn’t. Calvinists maintain Catholic teachings on Matthew 18.
Matthew 18 is intended for sins perpetrated against you, when the perpetrator refuses to admit guilt, even when confronted by “witnesses”. But, “The Church” has taken it upon themselves to put innocent people in discipline, and the guilty in protection. This is not what God intended in Matthew 18. He intended for the perp to be kicked out of the church (Assembly of Believers, not church authority). Tax collector, publican, and heathen was another word for sinner, and sinners do not get to heaven. That is how the perp is to be treated, like an outsider. The perp is not to be protected at all. If they wish to have mercy on the perp, civil justice has nothing to do with spiritual matters, and therefore, they can minister to the perp while he is in a jail cell.
The church is the last resort in the Matthew 18 process, not the first step. The church stays out of it. There is no Matthew 18 process here. Dial 9-1-1 and let the proper civil authorities investigate.
My lesson: “The Church (false authority)” vs. the church (assembly of believers).
Melody – sorry. I was the anonymous Christian who posted first on Sun. I apologize to you and I am sorry again I'm accidentally anonymous. I honestly did not mean to and I tried to clarify twice above when I realize it but there are so many comments I know it is easy to miss, if you click on my accidental comment it goes to the same website as all my other comments, so I definitely did not click anonymous.
Melody – sorry. I was the anonymous Christian who posted first on Sun. I apologize to you and I am sorry again I'm accidentally anonymous. I honestly did not mean to and I tried to clarify twice above when I realize it but there are so many comments I know it is easy to miss, if you click on my accidental comment it goes to the same website as all my other comments, so I definitely did not click anonymous.
appalling that an adulterer who might take someones money is shunned and slandered before the whole congregation but not a child porn viewer, who they encourage everyone to be extra nice to. makes one wonder if they like child porn viewers to be around.
Its interesting how you posted all of the Village emails except the one addressing all of your accusations… There's so much bias and hate in this blog your displaying your own hurt, anger and brokenness as well as the churches. Aside from the poor handling of the church in pursing Karen, their understanding of the Gospel and true forgiveness is missing from this blog. Which makes me ask do you truly understand and feel the weight of your sin against God and debt Jesus paid or do you (as demonstrated above) pick and choose what sins to forgive of others and what information to blog and not to blog…
Your readers would benefit from seeing the whole truth of the situation but I would be willing to bet that wouldn't fit this blogs agenda.
Its interesting how you posted all of the Village emails except the one addressing all of your accusations… There's so much bias and hate in this blog your displaying your own hurt, anger and brokenness as well as the churches. Aside from the poor handling of the church in pursing Karen, their understanding of the Gospel and true forgiveness is missing from this blog. Which makes me ask do you truly understand and feel the weight of your sin against God and debt Jesus paid or do you (as demonstrated above) pick and choose what sins to forgive of others and what information to blog and not to blog…
Your readers would benefit from seeing the whole truth of the situation but I would be willing to bet that wouldn't fit this blogs agenda.
Oh, you mean the link to TVC 5/23 email that is posted above (that I posted last night)? Or did you just pick and choose what to read?
Oh, you mean the link to TVC 5/23 email that is posted above (that I posted last night)? Or did you just pick and choose what to read?
Anonomous,
Hate:
Revelation 2:6
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
According to the Bible, 2 Cor 5 states to kick this guy out of the church. The Bible states that no one is exempt from the law of the land, regardless of religious affiliation. The law of the land is not just meant for Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons. It's for every citizen of the land. The bible states that. If you want to "forgive" this person, then are you a victim of this person? Only the victim(s) can forgive him. No one can forgive him for anything except for his victims. The church (fake authority) has no jurisdiction in any of this. Where have people come up with the strange conclusion that church members have authority to forgive people that have not sinned against them personally? That isn't in Matthew 18, Anonymous.
If people care so much for the perp, the jail has visiting hours. Dial 911. You do know the number to 911, right?
Ed Chapman
Anonomous,
Hate:
Revelation 2:6
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
According to the Bible, 2 Cor 5 states to kick this guy out of the church. The Bible states that no one is exempt from the law of the land, regardless of religious affiliation. The law of the land is not just meant for Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons. It's for every citizen of the land. The bible states that. If you want to "forgive" this person, then are you a victim of this person? Only the victim(s) can forgive him. No one can forgive him for anything except for his victims. The church (fake authority) has no jurisdiction in any of this. Where have people come up with the strange conclusion that church members have authority to forgive people that have not sinned against them personally? That isn't in Matthew 18, Anonymous.
If people care so much for the perp, the jail has visiting hours. Dial 911. You do know the number to 911, right?
Ed Chapman
It is interesting that a Village Church supporter would post anonymously, criticizing this blog, after Matt Chandler's railing against anonymous criticism.
Pardon me for posting anonymously. I am still in the process of disentangling from a controlling church, and I have friends still in that church that I don't want to see hurt.
My concern (and it's a serious one) is the way the Village Church may be enabling and contributing to child sexual abuse through their attitude and actions. I read the documents carefully — their communications stating that they didn't want to cause a panic among parents by letting them know an alleged pedophile was in their midst — at the least, it's disingenuous and ill-informed, and at worst it is criminal neglect. No, at worst it could be construed as aiding and abetting a pedophile. It is a disaster waiting to happen, and the innocence of children lies in the balance.
If you must have a pedophile in your midst, then set all the adults on their guard, for the sake of the accused pedophile as well as for the children's sakes, and set clear boundaries in place — like the man must have an escort at all times, even in the bathroom, so long as he is on church property.
After all, scripture commands us to avoid "even the appearance of evil."
My two cents. I was a member of TVC for over a decade and appear to have gotten out just in time (last year). The force/coercion displayed by the staff in the linked emails in this blogpost was experienced also by me and many of my friends in many different situations. It's embarrassing to say, but I'm ashamed it took me so long to leave. You always hope people will turn the corner. I'm posting as Anonymous not because I'm a coward, but to protect myself and others. I genuinely fear TVC finding this comment, then making my life a living hell.
And yes, I grew very tired of hearing the pastors go on and on about how much they loved and cared for us, both spoken in person and from the stage. It became sickening to me to hear it in my final weeks there. I hope things change, but I'm not sure conservative evangelical megachurches are set up to endure change.
This "church", it's "elders", it's "leader" and it's parishioners come off as if they are in a cult. Who would sign a "pact" with a church that they attend? Ridiculous and pathetic.
This "church", it's "elders", it's "leader" and it's parishioners come off as if they are in a cult. Who would sign a "pact" with a church that they attend? Ridiculous and pathetic.
@Matt Chandler, there is no doubt that either you or one of your people will be reading this. Do the right thing. If you don’t, you will not recover. This will not be swept under the rug. You will not silence the voices being raised here. There are too many Christian blogs and forums who have picked this up, and too many readers with too much influence. It will pick up steam, and your horrible, horrible mistake and your unwillingness to admit it and make it right with Karen will ruin you in the end. I am not a prophet or a son of a prophet, but God will expose the wrong. I can promise you this, without one bit of hesitation. I believe that Mark Driscoll and Sovereign Grace Ministries mistakes were that they underestimated the power of voices on the internet, and thought that controlling the local church voices would cover their mistakes.
@Matt Chandler, there is no doubt that either you or one of your people will be reading this. Do the right thing. If you don’t, you will not recover. This will not be swept under the rug. You will not silence the voices being raised here. There are too many Christian blogs and forums who have picked this up, and too many readers with too much influence. It will pick up steam, and your horrible, horrible mistake and your unwillingness to admit it and make it right with Karen will ruin you in the end. I am not a prophet or a son of a prophet, but God will expose the wrong. I can promise you this, without one bit of hesitation. I believe that Mark Driscoll and Sovereign Grace Ministries mistakes were that they underestimated the power of voices on the internet, and thought that controlling the local church voices would cover their mistakes.
Such twisted logic by those that are requiring Karen to submit herself to the "care" of these church "leaders." My question to those of you taking this position: Is there *any* action these church "leaders" could take that would free someone such as Karen from having to submit to their care? What would it take? It reminds me of the manner in which rape victims are viewed by some Islamic sects. Basically, the rape victim is shamed or blamed for the rape while the rapist is supported. The bottom line: expecting people with a lot to lose to effectively self-police is a fool's expectation. These church "leaders" have demonstrated themselves to be, at the very least, incompetent to handle an issue of this complexity. At worst, they have demonstrated themselves to be power-hungry fools willing to spiritually abuse those that dare to stand up to their silliness. I grieve for anyone that continues to submit themselves to these Keystone Cops.
Such twisted logic by those that are requiring Karen to submit herself to the "care" of these church "leaders." My question to those of you taking this position: Is there *any* action these church "leaders" could take that would free someone such as Karen from having to submit to their care? What would it take? It reminds me of the manner in which rape victims are viewed by some Islamic sects. Basically, the rape victim is shamed or blamed for the rape while the rapist is supported. The bottom line: expecting people with a lot to lose to effectively self-police is a fool's expectation. These church "leaders" have demonstrated themselves to be, at the very least, incompetent to handle an issue of this complexity. At worst, they have demonstrated themselves to be power-hungry fools willing to spiritually abuse those that dare to stand up to their silliness. I grieve for anyone that continues to submit themselves to these Keystone Cops.
Did anyone else notice the paragraph in the membership covenant that basically says "If you believe the church leadership to be in sin, you are free to leave"? Why would a competent adult sign such a screwed up agreement?
Did anyone else notice the paragraph in the membership covenant that basically says "If you believe the church leadership to be in sin, you are free to leave"? Why would a competent adult sign such a screwed up agreement?
I am very disappointed with the pastor matt chandler. It is obvious that he is a follower of the apostle paul instead of Jesus Christ. My covenant is with Jesus Christ, no man made doctrine and rules, I am free of bondage. I support Karen 100% and I am sorry that she was denied support from the village church and matt chandler. I am against any form of domestic violence and child abuse. Her husband is a stumbling stone in her life to do her missionary work for the Lord. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with divorcing a sick pedophile. Our marriage commitment is to our God and our savior Jesus Christ only not a man.
To Karen:
My prayers are with you. I hope your courage in refusing to 'submit' to the 'church elders' and in seeking annulment will empower many other women who are at the mercy of spiritual abuse by church authorities. As well meaning and hyper-spiritual as it all sounds, further victimization of the wife-victim is a shameful reality in fundamental Christian churches. It's heart breaking.
Thank you and SIM for refusing to stand down as you have no doubt protected many others from violation and exploitation.
You are a hero in my book, and I pray the Lord will graciously bring healing from the trauma you suffered and honor you for your efforts to protect others. ((((( <3 )))))
There is case law supporting people trying to leave a church:
Free association (and disassociation) is covered by the First Amendment.
Gunn V. Church of Christ of Collinsville
Ms. Gunn was being disciplined, and subsequently excommunicated, by her church, she resigned, the church refused to accept it, and initiated public shaming and shunning – Ms. Gun won, and was awarded $390,000.00 for damages.
Hancock V. The Church of jesus christ of Latterday Saints
Norman Hancock submitted a resignation letter to the LDS church, and was subsequently excommunicated by an LDS "court of love." Mr. Hancock sued for $15 million, the church opted to settle, for a sealed amount, out of court.
What I'm saying is that a church has NO RIGHT to keep a member who wants to leave, or violate their privacy by spreading details of their communication to other members. Resignation from a church is, in fact, valid from the INSTANT that a letter or even a verbally commicated desire to leave is received by the church office.
I hope that Karen has retained an attorney who can help her get satisfaction from this horrid abuse – considering the behavior of the elders, I think criminal charges may be in order – I would like to see the lot of them (Matt Chandler, most especially) in prison for putting so many children in danger of that monster they love so much.
I go to the Village. I am very saddened by this story and the grief Karen has gone through from her ex. Just found out today since I don't go to Dallas site. I am not on staff and am unsure how to proceed.
1-I am glad TVC and SIM reported immediately to police and other authorities!!!! Glad they took action.
2-It is great the Village chose to support her financially all the way until Aug and not the offender at all.
3-I am sad people chose to not immediately report offender to prior employers while investigation was happening…this bothers me as a parent a lot…maybe investigators said to let them handle. Regardless, still bothers me!
4-Good they let all the Dallas folks he know and barred him from kids areas, set other restrictions, etc. They seem to have made the offenders issues very public.
5-They e-mailed 6000 covenant members on issue which never happens and gave far more details than article above. I wish author had this detail.
6-Church e-mails in story above to her all attempt to try to be very loving. She still seemed to communicate after she asked for separation and of course they're helping her financially so TVC seems like they were trying to help as much as possible.
7-Despite their best attempts (which is clear in e-mails above) from female and male church members, they failed at helping her but succeeded him helping him, which bothers me heavily. I can't sleep it bothers me so much.
I also understand why they are trying to help the offender. They are a church. They can't turn their back on the lowest of people, like pedophiles, who need help. Jesus wouldn't.
This church sounds and acts like a stalker. "We don't accept your resignation" Makes me I was in Dallas. I would join just to resign the following week and laugh at their pitiful misunderstanding of reality.
So what awesome well run churches does the people on here attend? Where else are people getting info on here besides this blog?
Ssteinbach1, I am getting my information from the Bible, where it says this:
Matthew 20:25-28 KJV
[25] But Jesus called them unto him , and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
It seems to me that Matt Chandler and his crew are exercising DOMINION over the flock. Do you disagree?
Ssteinbach1,
John 10:11-14(NIRV)
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
12 The hired man is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when the hired man sees the wolf coming, he leaves the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
13 The man runs away because he is a hired man. He does not care about the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and my sheep know me.
From the membership covenant:
I covenant:
to steward the resources God has given me, including time, talents, spiritual gifts and finances. This includes regular financial giving, service and participation in community that is sacrificial, cheerful and voluntary (Matthew 25:14-30; Romans 12:1-2; 2 Corinthians 8-9).
It would seem that if you sign this covenant, you are OBLIGATING yourself to "regular financial giving", in direct contradiction to this Bible verse:
2 Corinthians 9:7 KJV
[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give ; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Just another example of how this garbage usurps the Holy Spirit in the believer's life.
I'm sure no one listened or attended the recent service where Matt Chandler apologized for wrong doings and admitted fault for recent problems with the elders at TVC?
Please instruct Karen that she has grounds to sue the pants off those wankers. See http://www.mormonnomore.com/legal-precedent
Marian Guinn, a member of the Church of Christ of Collinsville, OK, hand delivered her resignation to the minister after he told her he was going to excommunicate her for fornication. The minister refused to honor the resignation, went ahead with the 'excommunication' and then announced it from the pulpit. Guinn sued and was awarded $390,000. On appeal the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled that Guinn's resignation was effective immediately and that anything the church or the minister did after the minister received Guinn's resignation was tortable. In other words, she could sue for anything they did after she resigned. The court ruled that with her resignation Guinn withdrew her consent to being treated as a member and she withdrew her consent to being subject to church discipline.
Of extra importance is the fact that the court ruled that the right to freedom of religion also includes the right to unilaterally resign from a church.
In several subsequent court cases the Mormon church has agreed to the principles established in Guinn. They have not even attempted to argue that the principles do not apply to them.
It doesn't just apply to Mormons. After all the harrassment these jerks subjected this poor woman to, they can pay her some damages.
"The real heathen are not outside the church but in it." from "One Foot in Heaven" by Hartzell Spence.
Thank you Lord that I am not a member of TVC.
You may be interested in this book "The Whole Truth," which is authored by Joseph Klest, an attorney in Chicago who has represented countless sex abuse and child sex ab use victims, particularly against religious institutions: http://www.amazon.com/The-Whole-Truth-Spotlight-uncover-ebook/dp/B01BB6DD96/ref=zg_bs_156917011_1
dr kolawole of hamilton convicted of having numerous images of child pornography on his computer. Three months prior to his arrest on this conviction, he was arrested in hamilton ontario for soliciting two girls, ages 13 and 15 and was required to register there as a sex offender.